SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-24-2008, 01:07 PM   #1
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Hello first post here, I just bought a 1996 SL2 for cheep, to fix up.

In a few words... it smokes big time. I pulled the spark plugs and of course they're oily. Look down into the cylinders, and all have standing oil in them, all I see is a reflection! haha. Open up the coolant reservoir, and it is pure black, Looks like more oil than water in there.

Owner said there is a cracked head, so I'm guessing that is true. That evolves removing the timing chain and motor mount right? How is the best way to evacuate all traces of oil in the whole cooling system?

I mechanically inclined, I have installed engines before and done timing belts, etc etc.

thanks
David

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 01-24-2008, 01:29 PM   #2
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,005
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

I'd be leary of that engine. It was probably overheated. The DOHCs don't crack heads or have head gasket problems easily. So, your problems may not be limited to the top end. Several members of this forum have had good experiences dealing with Clearwater Cylinder Heads Inc. for reman heads.

The timing chain is going to be harder than most timing belts but, if you can do a belt you know enough to do the chain. Do get a Chilton's or Haynes manual at least. There are some tricks. Get a chain set that includes the chain, all three sprockets, the guides and the tensioner. The head bolts are TTY (Torque To Yield) and should be replaced.

To clean out the cooling system.
  1. Remove the thermostat.
  2. Take the return hose loose from the top of the coolant reservoir and route to a bucket.
  3. Get a bucket full of hot water mixed with automatic dishwashing detergent.
  4. Start the car and keep pouring the detergent and water mixture in the reservoir until the out from the return hose runs clean.
  5. Run clear water through to get the detergent out. Really you might want to do this with a coupled gallons of distilled water.

...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to BarnOwl's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help BarnOwl reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 02:31 PM   #3
rc1488
Master Member
rc1488 has a spectacular aura aboutrc1488 has a spectacular aura about
 
rc1488's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Carmel, NY
Posts: 5,658
 

1997 SL2
1995 SC2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

heres a diagram for the timing chain cover bolts. the middle ones like to hide under the grease

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...hp/photo/45384

...
Current: 95 SC2 Man 97 SL2 Auto 98 SL1 Auto 01 SL1 Man 02 SL1 Man
Past: 94 SL2 Man 95 SL2 Man 95 SL2 Man 96 SL2 Auto 97 SL2 Man 98 SL2 Auto 99 SL2 Auto
2010 SCCA Mohud Street Championship-2nd Place

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to rc1488's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help rc1488 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
rc1488 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2008, 09:18 PM   #4
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Pulling TB cover off... help!

Thanks! I pressure washed it with that in mind. I ended up rounding off one of the inside bolts on the TB cover. Luckily, I finally got it out.

Update: Did compression and leakdown test. Had valve cover off to make sure I had it on the power stroke for the leakdown. Cylinder 1 and 2 leak into each other. Somehow with air pressure applied to #3 I got air going into #1, I don't know how it "skips" #2. The rings aren't perfect, but I think they are okay.
And a significant amount of air comes out of the cooling system during the Leakdown test too.

I tore into it but got stuck...Something at the crankshaft is preventing me from removing the timing belt cover. The crank pulley is off of course, but the little key won't move, other engines I have done timing belt changes, the key came loose after removing the pulley. I think the washer with two flat sides is keeping it from coming off, what am I supposed to do? I can't seem to move that washer..

And yes I did remove the oil pan bolts! I would take a picture of the crank, but its dark now. Tomorrow.
David

Last edited by sensehumor; 01-30-2008 at 09:23 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2008, 09:40 PM   #5
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Also, There was only *clear* (not green) water in the radiator. Appears like there was no Boil protection or antifreeze. Appeared that most of the oil in coolant was all in the resivor. Makes sense.

The pressure test seemed to pass, but the leakdown showed leakage into the coolant. Intresting.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2008, 11:16 PM   #6
Dr B
Senior Member
Dr B is on a distinguished road
 
Dr B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,504

1992 SL2
1993 SL2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

That washer with two flat sides is the oilpump drive(installed in cover) serviced from the other side. the timing gear on crank probably needs pushed back in ,once the cover moves out a little.
You may need to pry down the lip of the oilpan ,and cut the sealer between front cover and oilpan,if you have removed the 4 oilpan bolts from the front.
It is a pretty tight fit ,since the crank turns the oilpump ect. a little wiggling goes a long way, freeing the cover. The key stays in crankshaft !

...
Have A Great Day , it is YOUR choice !

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Dr B's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Dr B reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Dr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:50 PM   #7
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

The RTV on the timing cover was still adhesive on the lower right and finally after a lot of wigging, I was able to pry it off. Yesss! Now I gotta release the chain tensioner. I am expecting to find the answer in the FAQ or search function, but can't find. How do I release it?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 09:52 PM   #8
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Sorry long message...

The head is off. After a quick inspection, I saw #2 cylinder is black at a spot on the gasket and head. See picture. All exaust valves except #2's have deposits, #2 probably was cleaned via coolant. I called it a night--I'll clean the head and check for cracks tomorrow.


Back to the beginning... it smoked badly, it was gray smoke. It looked heavy and thick like cigarette smoke. If you started it and turned it off 10 seconds later, the smoke would lay low and linger for several minuets. When I drove it to my house, it pumped mass amounts of smoke. Though eventually after a half hour of driving, it was almost gone. Prior owner said it did this too.

When I pulled the plugs to inspect them, they were oily, but that may have been because it was from the outside of the combustion chamber, leaking from the valve cover. The oil may have fallen in when I screwed each plug out. Now the center porcelain part after the oil dried is the "proper" tan/rust colored on 3 of them. The other 1 has chunks of carbon and looks greasy and is black. I don't know which cylinder, because I mixed them up.

Also if that #2 was the one causing all that smoke, I would think it would be steam clean. Also water would be steam out of the exaust, disappearing quick. So this doesn't add up, I think something else is wrong. If it was the valve guides how would you tell? I know that old Chevy small block V8's have poor valve guides, and it is common to get a puff of blue smoke when starting up after not driving for a day or too.

Also compression numbers from yesterday: Over 300, 176, 195, 192. #1 would keep going off scale.

Air pressure test: I put the engine near the end power stroke for each cylinder. Put Funnel to ear to find where the air escapes. Then put 2 cap fulls of motor oil in and tried again. If it was quieter, and started up again in a minuet, it was the rings.
1: Rings, leak into #2
2: Rings, and coolant
3: Rings seal very good. But seem to seep air into #1. (doesn't make sense...) No change with oil inserted.
4: Rings

I know piston rings don't seal good by design, because of the gap. So that test doesn't necessary mean thier bad or good.


Last edited by sensehumor; 01-31-2008 at 10:04 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 09:54 PM   #9
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

delete

Last edited by sensehumor; 01-31-2008 at 10:04 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 12:04 AM   #10
TwinRevver
Advanced Member
TwinRevver is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toledo, OHIO!
Posts: 925

1995 SL2
1995 SL1
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

umm any head bolts feels loose or too easy to come loose??


delete??

...
now with problems and getting a newer car but not a saturn :(
My 95 SL2 white top of the line car Priceless..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to TwinRevver's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help TwinRevver reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
TwinRevver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 07:00 AM   #11
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,005
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinRevver View Post
delete??
Probably an inadvertent double post.

sensehumor be very careful with that head. DOHCs aren't known for cracking but, they aren't known for blowing head gaskets either and it sounds like you had some water getting into cylinder 2. You wouldn't be the first to be fooled by a cracked Saturn head.

300+ on cylinder 1??!! Were the valves ever opening???

...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to BarnOwl's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help BarnOwl reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 01:00 PM   #12
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Ugh I deleted my response so now this is my second attempt at replying to today. I already wrote the following, but I accidentally closed the window.

I tried attaching a picture but that didn't work.. so I edited it, typed delete, and looked it up on the FAQ. I should ask the admin to delete that post.

Head bolts were all very tight. I broke 4 13mm sockets taking them out. One socket was Craftsman. Also when I was unbolting the timing cover, some of the bolts were over 100ftlbs, and I rounded one off, also the RTV job was messy, I think at least the timing cover has been removed before.

The Valve cover was leaking badly so I think it may have been oil that fell in. Also that one had the most carbon buildup. Though i am not sure that accounts for the 50% extra compression. When I drive the car to my house there was no pinging that I heard. All valves open.

Discovered #3 has wet exhaust post and header. Probably the one smoking.

All cylinders look great to me. Can still see the crosshatch marks clearly, no ridges at the tops. I should measure them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnOwl View Post
sensehumor be very careful with that head. DOHCs aren't known for cracking but, they aren't known for blowing head gaskets either
Yeah I am not putting it together until I know exactly why it smoked. Worse case scenario, I can get a used motor at a Salvage yard by me on their half price day. Would over filling the crankcase make it smoke? I bought it like that. It is level with the oil pan gasket, crank counterweights dipping. Shoot I should have test drove it with the oil regular level.

Wet exhaust port:
Lots of build up on the #1 exhaust valves:
Over filled oil to the oil pan gasket, see the reflection:

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 05:12 PM   #13
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

I Google searched it and the general consensus is that dipping counter weights = smoke bomb exhaust. Also the smoke tends to be white, while the "trademark" oil burning color is blue. I wonder why that is? On diesels if that happens, their higher compression can burn oil mist as fuel, called "run away Diesel"

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 11:27 PM   #14
TwinRevver
Advanced Member
TwinRevver is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toledo, OHIO!
Posts: 925

1995 SL2
1995 SL1
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

WOWOW..... urs might be the first saturn in history for _________(for lack of word to describe this 'situation').

ur post is very informative. put it in ur sig....

...
now with problems and getting a newer car but not a saturn :(
My 95 SL2 white top of the line car Priceless..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to TwinRevver's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help TwinRevver reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
TwinRevver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 02:16 AM   #15
virnin
Advanced Member
virnin is on a distinguished road
 
virnin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SW Wisconsin
Posts: 784

1995 SL2
1995 SL2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensehumor View Post
Yeah I am not putting it together until I know exactly why it smoked. Worse case scenario, I can get a used motor at a Salvage yard by me on their half price day. Would over filling the crankcase make it smoke? I bought it like that. It is level with the oil pan gasket, crank counterweights dipping. Shoot I should have test drove it with the oil regular level.

Over filled oil to the oil pan gasket, see the reflection:
Either that photo got reversed when you posted it or your Saturn is from another planet. That dogbone is on the wrong side of the crank.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to virnin's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help virnin reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
virnin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 05:58 PM   #16
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by virnin View Post
Either that photo got reversed when you posted it or your Saturn is from another planet. That dogbone is on the wrong side of the crank.
The motor is resting on the frame, so looks different. Actually it did come from another planet. Saturn

Yeah there is no rubber left in either dogbone. I can rock the motor back and forth by hand Its annoying to drive a manual transmission like this.

Well we'll see what happens once it is back together tonight or tomorrow.

Last edited by sensehumor; 02-02-2008 at 06:06 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 06:32 AM   #17
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,005
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by virnin View Post
Either that photo got reversed when you posted it or your Saturn is from another planet. That dogbone is on the wrong side of the crank.
Hmmmm looks right to me. That's the bellows of the CV joint in the background.

...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to BarnOwl's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help BarnOwl reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 11:31 AM   #18
virnin
Advanced Member
virnin is on a distinguished road
 
virnin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SW Wisconsin
Posts: 784

1995 SL2
1995 SL2
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by virnin View Post
Either that photo got reversed when you posted it or your Saturn is from another planet. That dogbone is on the wrong side of the crank.
Not sure what I was thinking. Just a different angle than I'm used to I guess.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to virnin's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help virnin reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
virnin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 01:19 AM   #19
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Put it together just enough to run, started it and it ran great, no smoke. I shut it off in 5 seconds. Then I put the motor mounts, intake, belt, water, etc in. Then started it again and let warm to operating temperature. White smoke, again. I looks just like the cold winter morning vapor, only here in Phoenix it isn't very cold or humid. I think it is water. Looks like I'll redo the compression and leak down tests tomorrow. Also what if I remove the exaust manifold and idle it for a few seconds to see which cylinder(s) are doing this. Also might drain the water, to try to repeat the problem.

A search reveals an intake manifold can cause coolant leaks? Coolant runs through there? Also what about the warmed throttle body? Can that be bypassed, to eliminate that?

Will try to get pictures or video of it tomorrow, put online.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 01:38 AM   #20
sensehumor
Junior Member
sensehumor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 20
 
Default Re: SL2, smoke, Oil in coolant, oil in cylinders

Originally it looked similar to this car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OV_QD_yFlo Now, mine disappears in about 2 car lengths from car. And it disappears *completely* unlike smoke, it is like steam from a tea kettle. Doesn't have much of a smell either.

Last edited by sensehumor; 02-05-2008 at 01:45 AM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sensehumor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sensehumor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sensehumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Low coolant, high oil level, bubbles in oil. Now what? [long] usa4624 Aura General 21 11-16-2008 12:34 AM
1992 Saturn SL2 Oil in Coolant GaHansen S-Series Tech 4 12-12-2007 07:50 AM
97 sl2 coolant in oil chrism102602 S-Series Tech 3 04-23-2007 10:40 AM
96 SL2 low oil/coolant light when cold NUHeriot34 S-Series General 7 03-01-2006 07:00 PM
Oil in coolant, white smoke, oil consumption Cheyanne S-Series Tech 13 04-28-2004 11:47 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.