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Old 10-08-2017, 10:58 PM   #61
OldNuc
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

There is something going on with this oil system and it could be in several places. Th oil pickup is near impossible to foul up unless you leave the o-ring off of the tube to block junction. Next is the suction side block to timing cover seal. This seal has an aluminum insert so it will not collapse under vacuum. That 30 psi of cold idle oil pressure is a bit low for cold oil at idel on a fresh engine, should be 2X that minimum. The warm-up drop off points to pump bypass condition and that is pointing at the pump cavity scoring and/or excessive clearance. The fact that you found a bypass valve with debris under the disk seat is not a good sign either. The problem is probably in the timing cover.

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Old 10-08-2017, 11:13 PM   #62
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Bill, I recently rechecked the two end cap bearings for damage/scoring due to low pressure. No plastigauge that time...Only lost/decreases pressure during idle. (as far as dangerously low goes). Otherwise 30-40.

Old nuc, I was debating whether or not to get a new t c cover. But you said something very very interesting.

Did I read you right? In timing cover/block, there's two rubber "o rings". Did you just say that one of those is supposed to have metal on one side? I need details please. Part number, which side the metal part goes against. I don't have that with metal, and you may have hit the nail on the head. Trying to recall.... The suction side, on the block... Would be the one on the left?

I checked pickup tube when it was open.... No restrictions, torqued to spec, seal looked good.

The oil pump cover had/has very minimal scoring. As in it's not good, but hadn't been going on for a long time either. Who sells these new?

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Old 10-08-2017, 11:45 PM   #63
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

When facing the block with TC off the suction side is on your right, towards the front of the car. Some of these have the metal support completely covered by the elastomer. Oil Pump Suction and Discharge seals in timing cover kit FEL-PRO Part # TCS45958

This is the RA available set.
Pix of front of block with seals in place, note the elastomer covered tube in the right hand seal.
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:27 AM   #64
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

That's the same set I used. I'll look at that better when I have it apart again.

I'm not gonna lie, I am dreading this, and will need some time to get motivated again. It isn't going to be bad, as long as this problem gets fixed this time.

So what's my plan of attack? Get this hog back on engine stand... Check those oring seals. If those check out, I'm thinking tear it all down and plastigauge everything. Again.

Thoughts?

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Old 10-09-2017, 05:43 AM   #65
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

I left out those o rings. I pulled the timing cover and replaced them with the motor in the car. Not a horrible job but took a while. Then later I had to drop the oil pan and reseal it, as it is hard to seal the TC into the corner. As long as you has some oil pressure, like the 8# you mentioned, and you didn't run it long or hard, I would not pull the bottom end apart.

It is much easier on the stand. You have to weigh the jobs. If you are as fast as some of the guys here, i.e. can pull it in an hour, then go for it. I was not that fast.

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Old 10-09-2017, 09:49 AM   #66
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Your problem is probably in the timing cover or the seals. Down stream excessive clearances are not likely. There are limits for pump clearance between the cover and gear. A new set of oil pump gears would be a good idea and if the inner face of the pimp cavity in the timing cover shows any circular scratches those will bypass the pump at low RPM. As I said before the oil pressure on a 60-70F start should be 65+psi and stay in that range even when the RPM initially drops to 850RPM. A couple of finger nail detectable scratches can knock 10-20PSI off of that number.

The junk that was stuck in the relief/bypass valve seat went through the pump.


When you drain the oil before pulling the engine catch it in a clean pan and then carefully check for any foreign material in the bottom. A nice brand new hog pan works very well for this. With engine on the stand lower the pan down from below and check in the pan for foreign material carefully. Do not turn engine bottom up until the pan is off and verified clean. You do not want to compound the problem.

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Old 10-12-2017, 05:55 PM   #67
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

I decided to get the engine back on the stand. Took oil pan off per old nuc's advice.

Yes there was definitely metal in the oil pan.

Verified the oil pressure seal, good there.

At this point, I'm assuming a bearing failed somewhere.

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Old 10-12-2017, 06:14 PM   #68
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

You can set it sideways and start pulling bearing caps. Leave the rods on the crank and just pull the 2 rod caps at the bottom of the stroke and every other main cap. Problem will be obvious if it is a bearing failure. All metal in pan has been through the oil pump in most cases. This usually means the timing cover is now toast. The cause and source has to be located so a fix can be figured out as there are options.

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Old 10-12-2017, 10:41 PM   #69
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

I like options that don't involve new engine replacement.

I'll post back later with updates once I get there.

As of right now, I've got all covers off this engine, and it's wrapped with a clean bag.

Gonna shoot for tomorrow, as far as dissection goes.

...
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:52 PM   #70
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

The trick is to figure out what went wrong and fix that then clean up the mess.

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Old 10-13-2017, 11:18 AM   #71
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

In process of, almost completed. Rods 1&3 spun. Every single bearing so far (except half of one) has marks. Most of them I cannot feel with finger nail. There are a couple that I can feel with nail. I am taking pictures as I go but won't post unless provoked.

The crank itself looks good, except in some spots, which I cannot feel with fingernail.

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Old 10-13-2017, 11:24 AM   #72
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Is there any bearing material "welded" to the crank surfaces? You can eat it away with sodium-hydroxide (lye), it attacks the soft metals but not iron/steel.

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Old 10-13-2017, 02:05 PM   #73
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Dizzy Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Bill, to accurately answer your question, I need to get the crank out. From what I can tell, there's nothing stuck to it.

And I would like to retract/edit about rods 1&3....they did not spin, but rather, came out of their keepers. Why? What caused it? Low oil pressure?

I just got the last cap back on, and my dad came in...And well....it appears that every last bearing is a pos and junk, meaning, I don't think they were right size to begin with, or something else funny going on.

But how, you ask.....it was plastigauged....well....crapola...My "friend" was teaching me how to rebuild this engine (no Saturn specific experience, as if that matters), and I saw him plastigauge the main caps...were they in spec? honestly....I do not know....I DO KNOW, that I will never forget this learning curve.

QUESTION: Could low oil pressure cause the clearance issues that I'm seeing? I'm pretty sure that these clearance issues can cause low oil pressure, but that's not the question. Like I stated earlier, there's no chunks missing from these bearings (the halves I could get to), just a lot of scratches, but not all finger catching.

You may ask, how do you know these bearings are not right size....? When my dad came in, he showed me the play in the rods, and the play in the mains. Not good...He's no professional by any means though, but I know he's right on this one.

QUESTION: Do I have to take head off to remove crank? I really don't wanna bend valves either....

QUESTION: Do I need to have crank sent back to machine shop? Head? Block?

OLD NUC, you said the timing cover is probably toast. I removed the oil pump cover, and I caused more damage to it along with the new pump. Without a doubt, it's not reusable now. I was able to locate a new oil pump cover.

QUESTION: Do I 100% need a whole new timing chain cover, or can I just replace that pump cover and get new pump, with the new screws?

One thing worth mentioning, the oil pump seals...in the block, I removed them. The one with the metal...I found a strand? of rtv? wedged between it and the block, on the back side. Not the color of rtv I used, maybe some of that plastigauge???

Enough questions for one post.....I'll be waiting for orders.

...
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:56 PM   #74
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

"they did not spin, but rather, came out of their keepers"

Can you clarify that? The only "keepers" I know of on rod bearings is the little tangs that keep them from, um... spinning.

Take the head off, pistons out, and start all over, with debris cleaned out of everywhere. You are most of the way there already. Yes, I would have the block and crank re-checked. If you don't have the precision measuring tools, take it to a shop. Probably not the same shop that had the problem with the oil-pressure relief valve, though.

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Old 10-13-2017, 04:21 PM   #75
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Yes the tangs.... Or keepers. To clarify..

Popped end cap off no3, and the bearing landed in my hand. No 1 was out of keeper, but didn't fall into my hand when took the cap off. It was more, propped up. The other halves "seemed" to be in place yet.

And I agree. Time to find a new shop.

Alright. Tonight will be the beheading and dismemberment. Maybe we can find more clues.

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Old 10-13-2017, 05:28 PM   #76
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Finally found a shop that seems to be able to do this. At least they have specs and I don't need to bring a book in, and the guy seemed like he knew what he was talking about, didn't mind talking. I like. The extra drive is gonna be worth it, hopefully.

Old nuc, you're being summoned.

Still have unanswered questions particularly on that pump cover.

Also, what do I need to ask or have them do when I drop all this stuff off? He says he can clean, crack check most of the block, measure all journals, cylinder bores, check for straightness/roundness.

Anything else I can/should check? Timing chain tensioner, maybe leaky? Etc.

...
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:45 PM   #77
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

The block will have to be boiled out and oil galleries flushed, same for head. Timing cover replaced. Crank replaced or ground, bearings replaced and timing set replaced. Oil pump replaced.

The rest of it probably escaped destruction. Rear seal is probably good, other soft goods as well.

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Old 10-13-2017, 05:53 PM   #78
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

As far as measuring cylinders that is not a bad idea but if they show any damage at all then you just inspect pistons and if they show any damage just bore it out and replace pistons and rings.

With all the spun bearings I would ask who measured the crank or was that one of those crank and bearings in a box deals. The other easy way to do this is to get assembly lube on the back side of the bearing shells.

All of the scrap metal must be flushed out of the bearing headers. The lifters may also have metal in them so the head flushing has to be checked for metal so you can decide about lifters. The 91-98 disassemble but the 99+ get replaced with the latest GM version. The odds are good that metal did not make it into the head but a cam journal inspection will tell you this.

Most of this possible damage can be detected visually without any measuring.

Last edited by OldNuc; 10-13-2017 at 05:58 PM..

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Old 10-13-2017, 11:16 PM   #79
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

Just to verify. I was completely anal about keeping the backs of bearings/caps/etc clean with acetone and lint free cloth during install. Maybe not careful enough?

The crank got grind prior to install.

How does one decide on the lifters? I say send it unless they're absolutely filled with metal/particles. Guess if cam journal inspection passes... It should be good...?

Now I'm paranoid. If cam journals show wear ... What's the fix? Then I'll probably need new cams. ??

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Old 10-13-2017, 11:34 PM   #80
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Default Re: Starting to get into all the small details

The problem is something ate up all of the bearing clearance, assembly lube is just 1 way that happens. The cam journal should have no bright spots or scratches-grooves. Look around the oil holes. If the journals are scored then it is new head time as there is no fix for scored journals, though sometimes they can be hand scraped and cleaned up.

Where did the reground crank come from?

This is the 98 engine right?

Was the block boiled out before this assembly?

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