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Old 03-19-2019, 11:07 AM   #1
Designie
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2006 VUE Red Line
Default 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

So over the past weekend I did a timing belt and water pump change on my 2006 Vue Redline. This is the second time doing this job so I was pretty familiar. The only thing I did differently this time was remove the ECM to make it a little easier to work. Everything went fine. Timing belt is right. Checked it and rechecked it.

I got everything back together and went to start the car and it absolutely runs horrendous. It just will not idle, chugging, sounds like it's missing, backfiring. Then it will die, I try to restart it, same issue. If I hold the pedal to the floor and then start it, I can get it to run if I keep the revs at about 3000, but then it will sound like it runs out of gas and will die.

I keep repeating this and eventually after the engine runs enough times to get the temp up, it will just start running perfect. Perfect idle, revs up, drives fine. After I let it run awhile, I shut it off and let it sit about 1/2 hour. It started right up and ran perfect (still pretty warm). Then I let it sit about 3 hours and tried it again after it was cooled down. Right back to not wanting to run.

The car ran fine before I did the water pump fix. I know it's not the belt because it runs perfect when it's warm.

Any ideas where to start?

Thanks,
Ron

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Old 03-19-2019, 06:17 PM   #2
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2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Possibilities are a marginal PCM contact, You disconnected IAT to remove air box. CKP or CMP view of sprocket might be obscured.

Idle learn isn't always required after TB change but FSM procedures call for doing so - see thumbnail.

Check engine light on at any time?

If yes - any codes stored?

I'd probably connect fuel pressure gauge and do following after one of those three hour cool-down periods.

Monitor fuel pressure at key on (don't try to start). Pump should run for a couple of seconds and fuel pressure should increase by 15 psi - if pressure does not reach 50 psi - cycle key again until you note at least 50 psi and then try starting engine.
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I try to visit forum often but suggest you use private messages if in a rush (comes to cell) and include email address for extracts. I seldom check visitor messages so please don't use.

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Old 03-19-2019, 08:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Designie View Post
I got everything back together and went to start the car and it absolutely runs horrendous.
If it runs that bad, it must have at least some pending codes, even if the CEL hasn't had time to set. Once you get it running good, I'd take it out for a solid hour in case something needs to be relearned. Is any temp sensor disconnected? Like the intake air temp sensor?

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
If it runs that bad, it must have at least some pending codes, even if the CEL hasn't had time to set. Once you get it running good, I'd take it out for a solid hour in case something needs to be relearned. Is any temp sensor disconnected? Like the intake air temp sensor?
So last night I tried starting it again cold. Same thing, missing, backfiring, etc. If I do not touch the gas and try to let it idle, it is barely running maybe 200 rpm until it stalls. Then when I hold down the accelerator to get it to run, if I hold the RPM's at 3000 it will run for a several seconds then just die. Literally as if you turned the key off. After wrestling with this for 10 minutes until the temp gets to normal, and bam! Runs perfect.

There IS an engine code showing. I will try and get that run. Air temp sensor is not disconnected (is that the sensor in the intake tube near the air box?). Unfortunately, I bought a new car so this water pump fix was just to be able to get rid of the car. Was my only vehicle for 4 1/2 years and never left me stranded. Now this....Ugh. Guess she don't want to go!!

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
If it runs that bad, it must have at least some pending codes, even if the CEL hasn't had time to set. Once you get it running good, I'd take it out for a solid hour in case something needs to be relearned. Is any temp sensor disconnected? Like the intake air temp sensor?
+1


I just did this job too. I unbolted the computer bracket from the strut tower but did not unplug computer from the harness. This way, I could move it around out of my way without any consequences from disconnecting power to computer.

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

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Originally Posted by WorldTour View Post
This way, I could move it around out of my way without any consequences from disconnecting power to computer.
Anytime you disconnect the battery you disconnect power to computer.

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Old 03-21-2019, 11:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
Anytime you disconnect the battery you disconnect power to computer.
Yes, it is always recommended to disconnect the battery.

However, I do not always disconnect the battery for every little thing that states to remove the battery cable, especially when the procedure is non electrical in nature. My car, my risk.

I also work with live 110AC circuits instead of turning off the breaker to the circuit. To each his own.

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Old 03-22-2019, 03:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

So I removed the computer to check for any damage I may have caused to the pins. Everything there looks ok. Will try and get the car to Autozone this weekend to pull the codes.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Designie, go over everything you did. Sometimes something may have been left disconnected. When a major repair is performed, many things are disconnected that affects how engines are supposed to run. Loose clamps to the intake air tubing can affect the maf sensor, broken flex tubing allowing air or vacuum leaks, vacuum tubing damaged from handling, etc. Everything has to be considered. An O-ring may be missing somewhere.

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Old 04-06-2019, 07:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

So I was able to finally get the car to the parts store and get the codes pulled. It is showing a CPS code P0336. That makes sense being that I was just in there doing the belt and water pump. What doesn't make sense still is why would it run fine once it got up to temp? I wouldn't think the CPS would be temperature reliant.

So what should I check first? Just pull the damper and covers and get in there and look? Could some dirt or grime have gotten in there when I was re-installing the belt?

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Old 04-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #11
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

I think there are two types of crank sensors. The one I'm familiar with is mounted into a hole on the side of the engine to detect machined teeth on the crankshaft (internal sensor). Yours may an external sensor to detect machined teeth on the end of the crankshaft. If the vehicle was sitting as a lawn ornament, corrosion and rust may form on bare metal. Internal crank sensors are magnetic. External sensors may be the same. All you can do is examine it for iron particles stuck to it and measure it for electrical resistance. If this external sensor is the same design as internal ones, resistance measurements should be similar. 700-1200 ohms at ambient temps, immersed on boiling water (hot engine) or rapped against the edge of a bench (engine vibration). Drastic changes in values from temperature changes or vibration indicates a faulty one.

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Old 04-08-2019, 11:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I think there are two types of crank sensors. The one I'm familiar with is mounted into a hole on the side of the engine to detect machined teeth on the crankshaft (internal sensor). Yours may an external sensor to detect machined teeth on the end of the crankshaft. If the vehicle was sitting as a lawn ornament, corrosion and rust may form on bare metal. Internal crank sensors are magnetic. External sensors may be the same. All you can do is examine it for iron particles stuck to it and measure it for electrical resistance. If this external sensor is the same design as internal ones, resistance measurements should be similar. 700-1200 ohms at ambient temps, immersed on boiling water (hot engine) or rapped against the edge of a bench (engine vibration). Drastic changes in values from temperature changes or vibration indicates a faulty one.
Fdryer, the sensor is mounted externally under the timing belt cover and reads a toothed ring that is behind the timing belt pulley. The vehicle was not sitting a long period of time, it was my daily driver until I got a new vehicle.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Thank you for the perfect picture of the crank sensor and the external toothed wheel.

Personal experience and many similar related issues with crank sensors shows two failure modes, outright and intermittent. My luck was the intermittent kind, driving home from work on a three lane highway when the engine died. A quick glance at the tach showed zero rpm as I coasted off the nearest exit. While waiting for help, I measured sensor resistance and saw very high resistance (>1200 ohms). Once help arrived (30-45 minutes later/engine cooled down), I measured again and resistance went down. On a hunch I restarted, successfully, but knew the sensor was intermittent and drove the local streets for another 10-15 minutes when the engine died again. I coasted into a parking spot. Replaced the sensor and drove home. That was a few years ago. Most intermittent crank sensor failures, no matter what vehicle, result from heat, cold and vibration. A few here tried suggestions for bench testing, measuring resistances at ambient temps, immersed in boiling water and rapping it against a bench table edge. Most find theirs failing in one of these modes. In all cases, a faulty crank sensor kills the entire EFI system since it sends electronic timing signals the ecm needs to run the EFI system. No crank sensor signals = no fuel pump, no ignition for spark, no injector pulses.

It's very difficult to prove your crank sensor is faulty because the engine runs, albeit erratically. Very few sensors exhibited your descriptions, going away with a replacement. Removing access covers may be the only way to see if magnetic bits are sticking to the toothed wheel or sensor, possibly interfering with the Hall effect.

I would heed far2grumpy's suggestion to use a fuel pressure gauge to monitor pressures first. This is one of the easiest troubleshooting steps to perform before going after the crank sensor.

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Old 04-30-2019, 02:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

So over the weekend I was able to get back to this car and get the cover taken off and get at the crank sensor. It was quite dirty and grimy in there, so I removed the switch and cleaned the area out really good. After seeing all the goop on the switch and the wheel, I was pretty optimistic that it would work. Put it partially back together to test it, no difference. Still would not run when cold.

I do not have a fuel pressure gauge, but I could use one so will pick that up and check fuel pressure next.

Frustrating....
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Old 04-30-2019, 05:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

I take back measuring the crank sensor for resistance. I presumed, incorrectly, the crank sensor for 3.5L Vues are similar to single crank sensors. If I can presume '05 crank sensor wiring is the same for '06, drawing and descriptions are the same.

Did you check furl pressure?
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File Type: jpg DTC P0336-2.jpg (150.8 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg DTC P0336-3.jpg (147.6 KB, 4 views)
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I take back measuring the crank sensor for resistance. I presumed, incorrectly, the crank sensor for 3.5L Vues are similar to single crank sensors. If I can presume '05 crank sensor wiring is the same for '06, drawing and descriptions are the same.

Did you check furl pressure?
Just checked the fuel pressure. 57 lbs at key on pump running, drops to 51 when pump stops.

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Old 05-02-2019, 07:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

And I'm still tripping over myself. I meant to state your crank sensor has dual sensors while mine has one. Your sensors appear to be powered by 12v. Mine does not use 12v and generates timing signals by itself with built in magnets. my guess is yours applying two sensors is for redundancy in case one fails? I don't know if its true or not. With a single crank sensor, failure results in killing the EFI system. I have personal experience along with many here describing the same symptoms. Below is a circuit drawing for my L300 using a single crank sensor.

I have measured my cranks sensor when it was hot when the engine died while driving home from work. Resistance was higher than expected. Once the engine cooled down (approximately 30 minutes) it would work until engine heat forced it into failure. When cooled, resistance fell to within range. Heat caused this sensor and many others to fail intermittently. This doesn't imply yours is failing under the same conditions as you're experiencing failure somewhere when cold. Whether the two sensors are needed to operate the EFI system or only one isn't answered in service manuals.

The troubleshooting table posted previously has you measuring for 12v and ground, measured from the two 12v inputs to each sensor and two 5v inputs at each sensor output (sensor disconnected). Ensuring 12v power is input and 5v measured at the ecm pins takes care of voltages. Sensor resistance measurement will check for an open or short.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

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And I'm still tripping over myself. I meant to state your crank sensor has dual sensors while mine has one. Your sensors appear to be powered by 12v. Mine does not use 12v and generates timing signals by itself with built in magnets. my guess is yours applying two sensors is for redundancy in case one fails? I don't know if its true or not. With a single crank sensor, failure results in killing the EFI system. I have personal experience along with many here describing the same symptoms. Below is a circuit drawing for my L300 using a single crank sensor.

I have measured my cranks sensor when it was hot when the engine died while driving home from work. Resistance was higher than expected. Once the engine cooled down (approximately 30 minutes) it would work until engine heat forced it into failure. When cooled, resistance fell to within range. Heat caused this sensor and many others to fail intermittently. This doesn't imply yours is failing under the same conditions as you're experiencing failure somewhere when cold. Whether the two sensors are needed to operate the EFI system or only one isn't answered in service manuals.

The troubleshooting table posted previously has you measuring for 12v and ground, measured from the two 12v inputs to each sensor and two 5v inputs at each sensor output (sensor disconnected). Ensuring 12v power is input and 5v measured at the ecm pins takes care of voltages. Sensor resistance measurement will check for an open or short.
Thanks fdryer. I am not that familiar with modern computer controls on these newer engines, and I certainly have not done much testing. I know the sensor has a plug that has 4 wires going to it. Am I supposed to test the voltage in the sockets of the connector with it unplugged from the sensor? I assume one wire is 12v, one is 5v, one is ground. Not sure what the 4th wire is? Then resistance is across the sensor contacts?

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Old 05-03-2019, 06:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

Are you able to click on all the attachments from post#15? To make posts easier for anyone, I and many members post images, drawings, whatever as attachments. All anyone has to do to see them is mouse over to any attachment and click on it to open a new page on a pc, laptop or tablet to view the image. On my laptop, when checking to be sure an attachment is correct before submission, I preview the post and click on the attachment as anyone would do to open a page in my laptop to view the image as anyone else would. With Chrome, I have a circle with a '+' sign, allowing me to enlarge the image. I don't know if other operating systems allows this but any image copied can be enlarged for better viewing.

From the wiring diagram, crank sensor on a bench; pins 3 & 6 are ground. Pins 1 and 4 are 12v from the fused side. Pins 2 and 5 are 5v from the pcm. And yes, disconnect the crank sensor then turn on ignition to measure voltages. You can measure resistance and compare values with the other sensor. Typical resistance measurement; pins 1, 2, and 6 for sensor A, 3,4, and 5 for sensor B. Three resistance values for each sensor.Sensor A - pins 1 and 2, pins 1 and 6, pins 2 and 6. Sensor B - pins 4 and 5, pins 4 and 3, pins 5 and 3. Compare values. A digital multimeter is needed for all around use.

The crank sensor(s) generates precise timing signals for the engine computer. These timing signals are the equivalent of an electronic heart beat. Without these timing signals the engine computer is dead. The engine computer turns on the fuel pump, initializes the ignition system for spark and pulses injectors.

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Old 05-03-2019, 11:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: 06 Redline will not run/idle while cold

fdryer, thanks a ton for the explanation. I will test all of these and let you know the results.

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